Sway on 5-6 Spin Turn. I can see now why that forbidden sway has crept in. They are coming off a flat RF which will incline the body to the right. When stepping to the side ever since the first book was written by Victor Silvester in 1928 a step to the side should be from a toe to a toe not a flat foot to a toe. Because as the moving foot passes the standing foot the heel leaves the floor.That is basic technique. It also puts paid to the swing which does nothing for the step. Where did that come from anyway. This is Waltz.... Use this method in the Spin Turn Quickstep. You will get a more dynamic movement. In the Quickstep it is not as drawn out, or rather spread out, as it has been allowed in recent years.. I wish people would stop trying to rewrite the technique books. What next a cartwheel.

"Sway on 5-6 Spin Turn. I can see now why that forbidden sway has crept in."

Take a lesson with real teacher, and you'll realize that so many things you consider "forbidden" are in fact near-unverisal practice amongst leading dancers. It all points back to your desperate need to get your nose out of that book and get yourself some real-world dance experience.

"They are coming off a flat RF which will incline the body to the right."

Actually the sway begins as they are arriving on the right foot, then grows as they move through it. And the foot is not flat - it articulates as the body passes over it. You do not "come off a flat foot" you come off of a ball of foot.

"When stepping to the side"

It's not a step to the side, it's an essentially forwards step 5 followed by a backwards and slightly side step 6. You keep trying to apply the description of a basic spin turn to the far more dynamic action danced by real dancer.

"Because as the moving foot passes the standing foot the heel leaves the floor.That is basic technique."

WRONG. It's pretty hard to do the "spin" on step 5 if your heel is still on the floor! The heel will OBVIOUSLY be up before the other foot passes the standing foot. (Think for a minute about the underturned case, in which the feet never pass at all... the standing heel still comes up to permit the spin!)

"It also puts paid to the swing which does nothing for the step."

You meant to say "which I do not yet understand how it contributes to the step". The issue is not the swing, the issue is your insistence on viewing everything through a beginner's eyes. The use of swing in the spin turn, rather than a pivoting action, is a key component to what lets the dance flow easily down the floor - you swing past your partner rather than go around each other on steps 5 and 6. The result is sway on the later steps. Get some real lessons, and you might learn about it.

You might start by reviewing Jonathan's comment from near the top of the thread:

"And here's another one: The Overturned Spin Turn to Turning Lock to R. It's not just a spin with straight rightward sway, however. Like the Lunge Roll, the sway starts kicking in mid-movement. Think of it as a smooth Lunge Roll with rise... The body is straight as you approach the RF, then sway begins once the weight begins transferring, and continues to increase as you move away from it and towards the next step. The rightward sway is then held through the beginning of the Turning Lock, straightening out between steps 2 & 3."

Not as I remember it. The question originally was something to the effect of, "Can you sway on spin or pivoting actions?", to which the answer is an unequivocal, "Yes, you CAN". You don't have to, but you certainly can, and seasoned professionals do it all the time.

The answer to these examples is exactly the same: The basic version has no sway, but there are brilliant examples of versions that do. In fact, you can take almost any basic version of any figure from bronze and dress it up in various ways: Change the sway, rise & fall, overrotate, underrotate, etc. Most competitive above-Gold standard figures are nothing more than elaborate developments of syllabus figures (some more elaborate than others).

A good example of a Lock Step with sway: Change the rhythm to SQ&Q. Sway right on the slow with a slight checking action. Then sway left on the Q&Q, with the lady opening her head.

An Outside Spin with leftward sway and lady's head open is a beautiful example I already gave. You'll often see this version following a Curved Feather or Hairpin (the latter which you will not find in the "gray book", so no doubt you will deny its existence), and is accented with a slight flick or spiral action of the man's right foot as the weight releases from it on 1.

According to this line of logic, all of the following figures are either "chaotic" or don't exist: the Throwaway Oversway, Right Lunge, Same-Foot Lunge, consecutive Pivots, Rudolf Ronde, Tumble Turn, Scatter Chasses, Spanish Drag... (I'd go on, but I only have 12 gigabytes of space remaining on this server).

The dance world's "chaos level" does not depend on some arbitrary publication. It obviously rules your world, but the rest of the dance world does not wait for it to be released in paperback. It's preposterous to think that dancing cannot develop without first being written down, published and copyrighted. Dance technique develops in the studios and competitions around the world, not by Simon & Schuster.

You are right about one thing, though... The ISTD is years overdue for an update on their "little gray book". Of course, if they were to update it to reflect every possible correct interpretation of every possible figure, the resulting series of books would rival Encyclopedia Britanica in pure physical weight.

Regards,
Jonathan

Aren't most of these sways you speak of for the lady, are actually shaping. She must do something to be able to turn the head from one way to the other. So she shapes. Surely the man keeps a frame that she can work off to inhance the shapes.
The Sway on a Natural. That is a Sway which both the man and the lady does at the same time.
I asked a Professional what in a Spin Turn step 4-5 would tempt a person to sway to the right. The answer was . They either have the wrong contact with their partner. Or just dont know how the Spin Turn is supposed to be done. Off balance they step out instead of a Pivot. This makes it a kind of imitation Spin Turn. I have a point here. If I am the type of person who will bend rules then I will do it elswere and everywhere. Then where will we be
To go back to the first part. Is the sway actually just a shaping we see from the lady.
Designed for one reason only and that is to attract attention on the competition floor and does next to nothing to assist balancing the movement.

"Aren't most of these sways you speak of for the lady, are actually shaping."

No. You already tried that question, and were already told that they aren't.

Try actually reading Jonathan's post and thinking about it.

"I asked a Professional..."

Either the person you asked doesn't know what they are doing, or far more likely, you didn't do a clear job of presenting the question. The kinds of stuff we are talking about here - movement coupled sway - are common knowledge amongst all serious dancers.

"To go back to the first part. Is the sway actually just a shaping we see from the lady."

No, just as in the natural turn it is a result of using swing to enhance the movement.


"If I am the type of person who will bend rules then I will do it elswere and everywhere. Then where will we be"

As a person who clearly lacks any real understanding of dancing, you are someone who must be controlled by extremely strict rules, interpreted quite literally. Fortunately, the rest of us enjoy more freedom - because we understanding the underlying principles, we can produce more characterstic dancing by following the spirit and intent, and not tripping over our misunderstandings as you so obviously do. Fundamentalists just don't get far... especially when they can't even understand their own holy book.

It's true that the spin turn is documented without sway... but wise use of sway can produce far more CHARACTERISTIC WALTZ than what is possible when you try to dance with unreasonbly rigid adherence to a written APPROXIMATION.

Sway is a nececary part of a turn, just like an aroplane, when it turns it sways. It is not there for enhancement but is necessity. Enhancement is a fringe benifit. Again what you are seeing is shaping to the left or shaping to the right. Although some of the less experienced ladies not only go to the right or the left but over the back also. None of them would quallify as sway. So you tell me what is sway in your oppinion

"Again what you are seeing is shaping to the left or shaping to the right."

Only in your imagination.

What I am seeing and doing is BODY SWING, WHICH RESULTS IN SWAY.

I do as it is spoken on a tape by Richard Gleave which is drive on one,
swing on two, and sway on three. If you were to sway on two you would probably turn. Swing goes straight. Then sway comes in.
Foxtrot Feather Step. Because the Feather Step is actually turning we have swing and sway. This puts some weight onto the moving foot which is the inside foot. O dear you only dance with one foot in contact with the floor, so you have said on more than one occasion. When you have heard we dance from foot to foot. You misunderstood completely. It means at the end of a step our weight goes on it and we dont get stuck with our weight neither on one leg or the other. It doesn't mean we have no weight on that moving foot at all. I suppose somebody would have worked out the ratio.

"I do as it is spoken on a tape by Richard Gleave which is drive on one,
swing on two, and sway on three. If you were to sway on two you would probably turn. Swing goes straight. Then sway comes in."

I assume you are talking about a natural turn. If you'll look in your book, you'll see that in fact there is sway on step 2. The sway doesn't perfectly align with a single step, and it doesn't begin and end in an instant. Rather, as the swing progresses sway gradually develops.

Certainly, if you time it wrong it can mess up your movement. But do remember that most swing figures - excepting the plain feather, but including the spin turn (get it, spin "turn"?), do actually have turn.

But remember we are talking about the spin turn, and not the natural. The swing that is commonly applied to the spin turn is certainly related to the natural turn, and causes sway in the same functional way, but the timing is different. Part of the action is more condensed than in the natural, part is slower and more drawn out. Thinking of the natural is a good starting point, but you will have to modify it some, by experiment, as you work with it.

"Foxtrot Feather Step. Because the Feather Step is actually turning"

Nope. No turn on a normal feather. CBM, yes, but that is not turn. In some cases, a slight curve of track at the end so that the steps falls only into CBMP and not across in CBMP, but that is also not turn, as no rotation is involved at that point. Might want to check your book, as you seem to have forgetten quite a bit about this figure.

"O dear you only dance with one foot in contact with the floor"

WRONG.

"so you have said on more than one"

UTTERLY false - that is a MALICICOUS LIE and you very well know it.

I still think Jonathan had the best, and most accurate, response to Quickstep's attitude:

"You certainly like to limit yourself. Then again, that may be exactly what you need to do at this point in your dancing, so it's not necessarily a bad thing. Just remember that not everybody requires such limitations as your own."